>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

UNDER WATER AND UNDER RUBBLE, RUSSIA SHELLS RESCUE EFFORTS AROUND THE BREACHED UKRAINIAN DAM.

I ASKED JOHN KIRBY ABOUT BREAKTHROUGHS ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

>>> DONALD TRUMP GETS CLOSER TO JOINING A CLUB OF OTHER FORMER WORLD LEADERS HELD TO ACCOUNT BY THEIR OWN JUSTICE SYSTEMS.

>>> I JUST WANT THE BEST FOR THE PARTY AND ULTIMATELY THE COUNTRY.

>> THAT SOUNDED LIKE A PRETTY CONFIDENT STUMP SPEECH.

WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?

>> CHRIS SUNUNU TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY HE DECIDED NOT TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT AFTER ALL.

>>> PLUS, THE KING OF SPORTS, SAUDI ARABIA, IS ACCUSED OF BUYING GOLF NOW.

I SPEAK WITH JOHN WERTHEIM ABOUT MONEY, MORALITY AND SPORTS WASHING.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE!

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

DONALD TRUMP 'S INDICTMENT ON FEDERAL CHARGES MAKES HISTORY IN THE U.S., BUT AROUND THE WORLD TRYING TO HOLD IT TO ACCOUNT IS NOT EASY.

THE JUSTICE SYSTEMS IN COUNTRIES LIKE FRANCE, SOUTH KOREA, ISRAEL AND ITALY HAVE FOCUSED ON ALLEGED WRONGDOINGS BY EX-LEADERS, THOUGH MANY OF THEM NEVER ACTUALLY ENDED UP IN A PRISON CELL.

THE CHARGES AGAINST TRUMP ARE RELATED TO HIS KEEPING CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS AFTER LEAVING THE WHITE HOUSE.

HE ALSO HAPPENS TO BE THE LEADING GOP PRESIDENTIAL CONTENDER AND A REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION MIGHT CHANGE U.S. SUPPORT FOR UKRAINIAN DEFENSE AGAINST RUSSIA AMONG OTHER POLICY CHANGES.

HERE TO DISCUSS IS JOHN KIRBY, SPOKESPERSON FOR THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL.

HE IS JOINING ME FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

JOHN KIRBY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE .

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN.

>> SO I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS FOR NATIONAL SECURITY ON THIS INDICTMENT.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN TERMS OF THE ALLEGED DOCUMENTS THAT HE MIGHT HAVE HAD?

>> I AM SURE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND, CHRISTIANE , THAT I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO COMMENT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER ON THIS ISSUE.

THAT IS FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO SPEAK TO.

ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN REMAINS FOCUSED ON MAKING SURE THAT WE CAN MEET NATIONAL SECURITY COMMITMENTS AROUND THE WORLD.

THAT INCLUDES IN UKRAINE AS FIGHTING INTENSIFIES DURING THE EARLY WEEKS OF THE SUMMER.

>> BUT OBVIOUSLY YOU AND OTHERS HAVE SPOKE ABOUT ISSUES OF NATIONAL SECURITY BREACHES, OF DOCUMENTS, WHETHER IT IS EDWARD SNOWDEN OR OTHER WHISTLEBLOWERS.

SO TAKING DOCUMENTS OUT OF A SECURED AREA OR MAKING THEM PUBLIC, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO COMMENT ON SOMETHING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS COMMENTING ON, BUT SEPARATE AND DISTINCT FROM THAT, WE ALL TAKE OUR OBLIGATIONS TO PROTECT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION SERIOUSLY.

WE HAVE TO DO THAT.

THE U.S. IS TRULY A GLOBAL LEADER, SO WE WANT TO PROTECT OUR ASSETS AND RESOURCES AND INFORMATION.

BUT AGAIN, I CANNOT SPEAK TO THIS PARTICULAR CASE.

>> SO TELL ME ABOUT -- YOU JUST SAID THAT IF THERE IS A REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION ALREADY OFFERING THE STATEMENT THAT HE IS THE LEADING CONTENDER, THEY HAVE PERHAPS TALKED ABOUT TAKING A DIFFERENT PATH FROM THE CURRENT WHITE HOUSE AND ITS ALLIES AROUND THE WORLD.

IS THAT STILL A WORRY FOR THE U.S., FOR THE WHITE HOUSE?

>> WE ARE NOT FOCUSED ON THE POLITICS OF 2024 OR WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN AT THE BALLOT BOX.

WE ARE FOCUSED ON MAKING SURE THAT WE CAN DELIVER ON PRESIDENT BIDEN'S STRONG COMMITMENT TO AMERICAN SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, AND THAT IS A COMMITMENT THAT WE QUITE FRANKLY SEE FROM CAPITOL HILL, BOTH PARTIES, BOTH CHAMBERS OF CONGRESS WANTING TO SUPPORT UKRAINE IN THEIR FIGHT AGAINST RUSSIA.

WE BELIEVE THE SUPPORT WILL CONTINUE, AND THAT IS THE FOCUS FOR WHAT WE ARE SPENDING OUR TIME ON RIGHT NOW.

>> RIGHT NOW CAN YOU GIVE US ANY UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING AROUND THE DAM?

IT IS OBVIOUSLY A CATASTROPHIC BREACH AND IT HAS AFFECTED HUGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE AND LIVES, AND THERE IS JUST SO MUCH ENVIRONMENTAL AND HUMANITARIAN DISASTER THERE.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DAM RIGHT NOW?

>> OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT BREACH THAT CAUSED ALL THE FLOODING.

WE STILL DO NOT HAVE SPECIFIC INFORMATION ABOUT HOW THAT BREACH OCCURRED, AND WE ARE DOING THE BEST WE CAN, TALKING TO UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES TO ASSESS THAT.

BUT HONESTLY, THE PREDOMINANT AMOUNT OF OUR FOCUS IS ON ALLEVIATING SOME OF THE HUMANITARIAN CONCERNS THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF UKRAINIANS IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE COUNTRY ALL THE WAY DOWN TO KHERSON HAVE HAD TO LEAVE THEIR BUSINESSES BEHIND.

THERE HAVE BEEN CASUALTIES AND LIVES LOST.

THERE IS A LACK OF POWER AND WATER.

SO WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN, WORKING THROUGH USAID AND OUR HUMANITARIAN PARTNERS ON THE GROUND TO GET AID AND ASSISTANCE TO WHERE IT IS NEEDED.

WITHIN HOURS OF THE BREACH, WE HAVE WORKED TO GET BUSES AVAILABLE AND GET PEOPLE OUT OF DANGER.

WE HAVE PROVIDED BOATS ANOTHER RESCUE GEAR AND WE WILL STAY IN TOUCH WITH UKRAINIANS ABOUT WHAT THEY NEED GOING FORWARD.

>> YOU MENTIONED WATER, AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT ONLY SHIFT IN WATER CAN BE USED FOR DRINKING.

THEY ARE ENTIRELY RELIANT ON OUTSIDE WATER COMING IN.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKY HAS ALSO SAID PUBLICLY THAT RUSSIA IS IN FACT FIRING ON PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO EVACUATE.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> THE SITUATION IS VERY DIFFICULT.

RUSSIAN TROOPS ARE STOPPING RESCUE EFFORTS AT THE EVACUATION AREA.

PEOPLE WHO ARE RESCUING AND EVACUATING FROM THE RUSSIAN ECO- SIDE ARE ALSO FORCED TO FLEE FROM RUSSIAN FIRE.

>> JOHN KIRBY, THERE IS A LOT OF ANGER INSIDE UKRAINE ABOUT THE NOTION THAT THEY MIGHT BE CONSIDERED, YOU KNOW, RESPONSIBLE FOR IT.

EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT RUSSIA HAS BEEN BOMBARDING THIS AREA FOR A LONG TIME, AND THE THREAT TO THE DAM HAS BEEN PUBLIC.

DO YOU REALLY THINK IT IS ANYTHING OTHER THAN RUSSIA?

>> WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT CAUSED THE BREACH.

WE ARE TRYING TO ASSESS THAT AS BEST AS WE CAN.

WE ARE NOT ON THE GROUND, BUT WE ARE TRYING TO DO THE BEST WE CAN TO ASSESS IT.

RUSSIA WAS ILLEGALLY IN UKRAINE.

THEY HAD NO BUSINESS IN UKRAINIAN TERRITORY PERIOD, BUT WE KNOW THEY WERE OCCUPYING THESE AREAS.

WE KNOW THAT THEY WERE OCCUPYING THE DAM AND THE RESERVOIR.

SO CLEARLY THEY HAD GIVEN THEMSELVES THE MANTLE OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT DAM AND FOR THE SAFETY OF THAT DAM.

SO CLEARLY RUSSIA BEARS RESPONSIBILITY IN GENERAL FOR JUST BEING THERE PHYSICALLY.

BUT WHAT CAUSED THE BREACH EXACTLY?

THAT IS WHAT WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

WHILE WE STILL WANT TO FIGURE THAT OUT, WE ARE MAINLY FOCUSED ON TRYING TO ALLEVIATE THE HUMANITARIAN DISASTER THAT THE BREACH HAS CAUSED.

>> BUT MANY BELIEVE, AND CERTAINLY THE UKRAINIANS AND AMERICAN OFFICIALS DO, THAT IT COULD BE A VERY CYNICAL PLOT TO TRY AND THWART THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE THAT WE UNDERSTAND IS UNDERWAY.

IT WOULD THWART THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE, WOULDN'T IT?

HOW DOES A NATION FIGHT WITH ALL THE MOD CONS THAT YOU HAVE SENT, THE BRADLEYS AND OTHER ARMORED VEHICLES THAT YOU HAVE SENT THAT ARE IN USE RIGHT NOW?

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO COME ACROSS THAT KIND OF FLOODED TERRAIN.

>> WITH THE CAVEAT THAT I WON'T SPEAK FOR THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY OR WHAT THEIR PLANS OR INTENTIONS ARE IN TERMS OF OFFENSIVE OPERATIONS, THAT IS FOR THEM TO SPEAK TO, BUT CERTAINLY.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE FLOODING THAT WAS CAUSED TO THE SOUTH AND SOUTHWEST OF THE DAM THROUGH THAT SOUTHERN PART OF UKRAINE DOWN TO KHERSON, CERTAINLY THAT KIND OF FLOODING IS GOING TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON MILITARY ABILITY TO MANEUVER AND FIGHT.

JUST THE FIGHTING ITSELF WILL MAKE CONDITIONS UNTENABLE FOR THAT KIND OF FIGHTING, BUT IT WILL ALSO UNNECESSARILY DIVERT UKRAINIAN RESOURCES AND ENERGY AND EVEN SOME MILITARY ATTENTION TO TRY AND ALLEVIATE THE CATASTROPHE.

IN THAT REGARD THERE WILL CERTAINLY BE AN IMPACT TO UKRAINE AND THEIR RESOURCES AND ABILITIES, BUT AGAIN, THERE IS A LOT OF FIGHTING GOING ON ELSEWHERE IN THE EASTERN PART OF THE COUNTRY, AND WE WILL LET MR. ZELENSKY SPEAK TO THAT TO CHARACTERIZE.

>> I KNOW YOU WILL LET HIM, BUT WE HAVE HEARD AND WE READ AND WE KNOW THAT YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE INTELLIGENCE AND EYES ON THE GROUND.

THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT HAS SAID THAT THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE HAS STARTED AND THAT IT IS NOT GOING WELL FOR UKRAINE.

WE HAVE HEARD FROM U.S. OFFICIALS THAT THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF FIGHT BACK FROM THE RUSSIANS AND CASUALTIES IN TERMS OF MATERIAL AND MEN.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE INITIAL STAGES OF THIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE?

>> AGAIN, I WILL LET THE UKRAINIANS SPEAK TO THEIR OFFENSIVE OPERATIONS.

WE WOULD NOT DO THAT.

WE WOULD NOT CHARACTERIZE IT AND GET AHEAD OF PRESIDENT ZELENSKY, BUT CLEARLY, AND YOU HAVE CNN REPORTERS ON THE GROUND WITNESSING THIS FOR THEMSELVES, THERE IS A STEPPED UP FIGHTING ALONG THE EASTERN FLANK THERE, ALONG THE EASTERN SIDE OF THE COUNTRY, INCLUDING AROUND BAKHMUT AND POINTS FURTHER SOUTH.

SO THERE IS CONTACT BETWEEN THESE TWO MILITARY FORCES.

THERE IS FIGHTING AND THERE HAS BEEN CASUALTIES.

WHAT WE WILL BE FOCUSED ON WITHOUT SPEAKING FOR THEM IS MAKING SURE THEY HAVE ALL THE RESOURCES AND CAPABILITIES AND TOOLS THEY NEED TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN THE WEEKS AND MONTHS AHEAD.

THAT INCLUDES IN COMING DAYS.

I THINK YOU WILL SEE MORE ANNOUNCEMENTS FROM THE U.S. ABOUT ADDITIONAL AID AND SECURITY AND WEAPONS AND CAPABILITIES THAT WILL BE GOING TO THE UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES TO HELP THEM.

>> ANOTHER OMINOUS PLEDGE FROM PRESIDENT PUTIN WAS THAT IN A MATTER OF DAYS HE IS GOING TO DEPLOY TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS TO BELARUS.

HE SAYS THAT THEY HAVE BUILT WHATEVER THEY NEED TO BUILD TO HOUSE THESE THINGS.

WHAT CAN THE UNITED STATES DO ABOUT THAT?

WHAT IS THE ACTUAL, REAL THREAT OF THEM BEING IN BELARUS?

>> THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF JUST RECKLESS AND IRRESPONSIBLE RHETORIC AND POSTURING ABOUT NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES FROM MR. PUTIN AND FROM MOSCOW.

A NUCLEAR WAR SHOULD NEVER BE FOUGHT, CAN NEVER BE WON.

WE HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

THIS IS DANGEROUS RHETORIC WHICH WE HAVE TO TAKE SERIOUSLY.

WE CANNOT JUST CAST IT OFF AS BLUSTER.

WE HAVE TO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY COMING FROM A COUNTRY LIKE RUSSIA AND MR. PUTIN.

SO WE ARE DOING THE BEST WE CAN TO MONITOR.

WE SEE NOTHING THAT SHOWS US AN IMMINENT MOVEMENT OF NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES OR OF NUCLEAR WAR INSIDE UKRAINE OR EVEN ON THE CONTINENT.

I CAN TELL YOU THAT WE HAVE SEEN NOTHING THAT WOULD CAUSE US TO CHANGE OUR OWN DETERRENT POSTURE WHEN IT COMES TO THESE CAPABILITIES AND WE ARE WATCHING THIS VERY CLOSELY.

>> SO ANOTHER THING YOU ARE WATCHING CLOSELY, AND IT IS TRICKY OVER THERE, IS CHINA.

THIS WEEK THE CHINESE DEFENSE MINISTER WARNED THE UNITED STATES OF ITS ACTIONS DURING A CONFERENCE IN SINGAPORE.

HERE IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> IT IS UNDENIABLE THAT I SEVERE CONFLICT OR CONFRONTATION BETWEEN CHINA AND THE U.S. WILL BE AN UNBEARABLE DISASTER FOR THE WORLD.

CHINA BELIEVES THAT A MAJOR COUNTRY SHOULD BEHAVE LIKE ONE.

>> SO DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE HEADED TOWARDS SOME KIND OF CONFRONTATION?

>> NO I DON'T, NOT AT ALL.

I WOULD ACTUALLY AGREE WITH THE OFFICIAL FROM THE PRC IN SAYING THAT IT WOULD HAVE DISASTROUS CONSEQUENCES NOT JUST FOR OUR COUNTRY BUT FOR THE WORLD AT LARGE.

THE PRESIDENT IS CONVINCED AND CONFIDENT THAT WE CAN GET THIS RELATIONSHIP TO A BETTER FOOTING, BUT IT WILL REQUIRE EFFORT ON BOTH SIDES AND THAT IS WHAT IS REALLY REQUIRED.

IT WILL ALSO REQUIRE NOT ONLY KEEPING THE LINES OF COMMUNICATION OPEN, BUT OPENING ONES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN OPEN SUCH AS THE MILITARY TO MILITARY CHANNEL.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE RISK OF CONFLICT, THE TENSION YOU ARE SEEING IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA AND THE STRAITS OF TAIWAN ARE BETWEEN OUR MILITARIES.

AT THE TIME WHEN THE TENSIONS ARE THIS HIGH AND WE WANT TO GET THEM DOWN, AT A TIME WHEN MISCALCULATION AND MISUNDERSTANDING IN THE AIR OR AT SEA CAN LEAD TO SOMEBODY GETTING HURT, YOU WANT TO HAVE THESE MILITARIES TALKING TO ONE ANOTHER.

HOPEFULLY SECRETARY BLINKEN WILL BE ABLE TO COMPLETE THE TRIP TO BEIJING THAT HE WAS GETTING READY TO START A FEW MONTHS AGO AND SEE IF HE CAN'T WORK TO OPEN UP THESE MILITARY LINES OF COMMUNICATION.

THAT WILL GO A LONG WAY TO REDUCING THE TENSIONS AND CHANCES OF ANY CONFLICT BETWEEN OUR TWO MILITARIES.

>> IN THE MEANTIME, CAN YOU CONFIRM OR COMMENT ON WHAT CNN IS REPORTING, THAT CUBA HAS ALLOWED CHINA TO BUILD A SPYING FACILITY ON THE ISLAND FOR EAVESDROPPING AND THE REST?

DO YOU HAVE ANY INTELLIGENCE ON THAT?

>> I DON'T.

WE HAVE SEEN THE REPORTING ON THAT, CHRISTIANE , AND PLAINLY SPEAKING IT IS NOT ACCURATE, BUT I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING ON THAT.

THE ONLY THING THAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT WE ARE MINDFUL AND HAVE BEEN SINCE DAY ONE, MINDFUL AND CONCERNED ABOUT CHINESE INFLUENCE ACTIVITIES IN THIS HEMISPHERE, IN THIS REGION, CERTAINLY MINDFUL AND CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH CUBA SPECIFICALLY AND WE MONITOR THIS VERY, VERY CLOSELY.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT WE HAVE TAKEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO TAKE STEPS TO CONTINUE TO DEFEND OUR INTERESTS AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IN THIS REGION AND WELL BEYOND.

>> JOHN KIRBY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> TURNING BACK TO THE INDICTMENT OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, LET'S DISCUSS WHAT THIS SAYS ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW AND THE STATE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS IT CHOOSES A NOMINEE TO LEAD IT INTO THE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

FIRST TO THE LEGAL ANALYST CARRIE CORDERO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> SO A HUGE AMOUNT OF ATTENTION ON THIS.

YES, IT IS AN UNPRECEDENTED FEDERAL INDICTMENT OF A FORMER PRESIDENT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK LEGALLY NOW THIS MEANS FOR DONALD TRUMP?

IS IT A SLOW RATCHETING UP OF THE LEGAL NEWS, SO TO SPEAK, THE PRESSURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS?

>> WELL THIS PARTICULAR INVESTIGATION I HAVE BEEN WATCHING FOR A LONG TIME, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE THERE ARE SERIOUS POTENTIAL CHARGES HERE.

WE HAVE NOT YET SEEN THE ACTUAL INDICTMENT, THE DOCUMENT THAT LAYS OUT THE FACTS OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT INVESTIGATION AND THE SPECIFIC CHARGES THAT WE CAN CONFIRM THAT HE HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH THROUGH A RETURNED INDICTMENT.

WE EXPECT TO SEE THAT TUESDAY AT THE LATEST IF IT IS NOT UNSEALED BEFORE THEN.

BUT THIS REPRESENTS A REALLY SIGNIFICANT LEGAL JEOPARDY FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

HE WAS INFORMED HE WAS A TARGET OF THE INVESTIGATION AND NOW IT APPEARS THAT HE HAS BEEN INDICTED.

THE POTENTIAL CHARGES THAT WE ARE REPORTING AT CNN AND THAT HIS LAWYER HAS REFERRED TO, AND SOME INFORMATION THAT THEY HAVE RECEIVED FROM THE GOVERNMENT, INCLUDE SERIOUS CHARGES OF POTENTIAL OBSTRUCTION, WILLFUL RETENTION OF NATURAL DEFENSE INFORMATION AND MISHANDLING OF CLASSIFIED INFORMATION.

THESE ARE ALL REALLY SERIOUS FEDERAL CRIMES AND THEY REALLY SERIOUS LEGAL SITUATION FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT, DIFFERENT FROM THE CIVIL CASES WE HAVE SEEN OR EVEN STATE AND LOCAL CASES.

>> WE UNDERSTAND FROM THE LAWYER HIMSELF, WHO HAS NOW SAID THAT HE AND HIS COLLEAGUE HAVE RESIGNED FROM THE TRUMP DEFENSE, AND TRUMP HAS SAID HE IS BRINGING SOMEBODY ELSE ON, BUT NEVERTHELESS HE HAS TOLD CNN THAT THEY INCLUDE CHARGES AROUND THE CONSPIRACY PIECE.

WE UNDERSTAND FROM TRUMP THAT HIS OWN BALLET, HIS OWN AID HAS ALSO BEEN INDICTED.

FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE, DOES THAT SHOW YOU WHERE THE CONSPIRACY PIECE OF IT MIGHT BE TARGETED?

>> I WILL WANT TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT IS IN THE INDICTMENT ITSELF, BUT ONE POTENTIAL THEORY ON HOW THIS MIGHT BE CHARGED IS WE KNOW FROM PRIOR REPORTING THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT HAS BEEN UNDER INVESTIGATION FOR OBSTRUCTING THE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS INVESTIGATION.

SO NOT JUST FOR RETAINING IT, BUT ALSO FOR OBSTRUCTING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ITSELF.

THIS CONDUCT WAS OVER MANY, MANY MONTHS WHERE THE GOVERNMENT CAME TO HIM, ASKED FOR THE DOCUMENTS TO BE RETURNED , SOME WERE RETURNED BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.

IT EVENTUALLY LED TO THE GOVERNMENT NEEDING TO GO TO A FEDERAL JUDGE AND OBTAIN A SEARCH WARRANT FOR HIS HOUSE.

THAT WAS OF COURSE A VERY DRAMATIC AND SIGNIFICANT INVESTIGATIVE STEP FOR THEM TO HAVE TO TAKE THAT MEASURE, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT TRUST THAT ALL THE DOCUMENTS HAD BEEN RETURNED.

SO THERE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN THIS ONGOING PATTERN OF CONDUCT WHERE THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND HIS TEAM WAS NOT COOPERATIVE.

WE CAN CONTRAST THAT TO OTHER SITUATIONS, INCLUDING THE ONE INVOLVING FORMER PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE, WHERE HE LEARNED THAT HE HAD RETAINED SOME CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS BY ACCIDENT.

HE WORKED WITH THE GOVERNMENT, HE RETURNED THEM, THEY LOOKED INTO IT, CONDUCTED A QUICK INVESTIGATION, AND THAT WAS THE END OF IT.

SO THIS PROVIDES AN INCREDIBLE CONTRAST BETWEEN WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SOMEONE IN SUCH A SIGNIFICANT POSITION OF LEADERSHIP IN THE GOVERNMENT HAS SOMETHING THAT THEY HANDLE PROPERLY, THEY RESPOND TO THE GOVERNMENT, THEY WORK WITH THEM AND THAT IS THE END OF IT, VERSUS THE SITUATION FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP FINDS HIMSELF IN.

>> SO YOU MENTIONED MIKE PENCE.

HE HAS BEEN QUITE SCATHING IN HIS COMMENTS UNTIL NOW ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HE AND OTHER CANDIDATES, AND THIS GETS TO THE POLITICAL SIDE, TALK ABOUT THIS ADMINISTRATION UNACCEPTABLY WEAPONIZED IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

PENCE SAID, SPEAKER McCARTHY HAS SAID IT IS UNCONSCIONABLE FOR HIM TO INDICT THE LEADING CANDIDATE OPPOSING HIM, BUT IT IS NOT THE PRESIDENT WHO IS INVITING HIM.

>> SO IN THIS CASE WHAT HAPPENED IS THEY APPOINTED A SPECIAL COUNSEL IN PART BECAUSE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD DECLARED HIS CANDIDACY FOR THE NEXT ELECTION.

SO THAT DOES PLACE HIM IN A MORE SENSITIVE POSITION WHEN IT COMES TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CONDUCTING AN INVESTIGATION OF HIM.

SO BASICALLY THEY WALLED OFF THE INVESTIGATION TO A SPECIAL COUNSEL, GAVE THE SPECIAL COUNSEL BROUGHT AUTHORITY.

GARLAND STILL HAS BROAD AUTHORITY, BUT THE SPECIAL COUNSEL IS QUITE AUTONOMOUS AND HAS BEEN ABLE TO CONDUCT THE INVESTIGATION.

THAT IS FOR BOTH THE PRACTICAL EFFECT AND THE APPEARANCE OF TRYING TO REMOVE THE ADMINISTRATION, THE CURRENT PRESIDENT BIDEN FROM HIS POTENTIAL FUTURE POLITICAL OPPONENT IN THE 2024 ELECTION IF THOSE TWO MEN END UP BEING THE NOMINEES OF THEIR PARTY.

BUT IT IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL AND THIS POLITICAL RESPONSE TO IT AND THE CRITICISM OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND THE CRITICISM OF THE FBI FROM SOME PARTS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS REALLY AT THIS TENSION WITH PARTS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT ALSO PURPORT THEMSELVES TO BE PRO-RULE OF LAW AND IN FAVOR OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.

SO WE HAVE THIS TENSION AMONG MEMBERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THEIR MESSAGING.

>> THE FACT THAT CNN HAS RECEIVED A TRANSCRIPT OF TRUMP'S OWN VOICE TALKING ABOUT HOW HE COULD NOT DECLASSIFY AS A NON-PRESIDENT, THAT SEEMS TO BE EVIDENCE AGAINST HIM!

>> IT IS A FACT THAT A FORMER PRESIDENT DOES NOT HAVE AUTHORITY -- >> NO, NO, BUT HE SAID HE DID NOT HAVE ANY OF THESE THINGS!

>> RIGHT.

ON THE TRANSCRIPT HE APPEARS TO SAY HE DOESN'T HAVE AUTHORITY.

THAT IS TRUE.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT DOES NOT HAVE AUTHORITY TO CLASSIFY OR DECLASSIFY INFORMATION.

ONCE A PERSON IS NOT PRESIDENT ANY MORE THAN THEY DO NOT HAVE AUTHORITY TO CLASSIFY OR DECLASSIFY INFORMATION.

THIS IS IN CONTRAST WITH SOME OF HIS FORMER PUBLIC PRIOR STATEMENTS WHERE HE HAS PUBLICLY SAID THAT HE IS ABLE TO DECLASSIFY DOCUMENTS THAT WILL OR ALLOWED TO TAKE THE DOCUMENTS WITH HIM, WHICH IS ALSO NOT TRUE.

>> FINALLY RESTART THE PROGRAM BY SAYING THE PROSECUTING AND HOLDING ACCOUNTABLE FORMER LEADERS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS HAPPENED IN MANY DEMOCRACIES AROUND THE WORLD HERE IN THIS CASE IT IS UNPRECEDENTED, THE FEDERAL CHARGES THAT YOU JUST LAID OUT.

DO YOU THINK THAT THIS BOLSTERS THE RULE OF LAW AND AMERICA STANDING IN THE WORLD, OR IS IT A THREAT TO THE REPUBLIC?

>> IF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS CONDUCTED A THOROUGH INVESTIGATION AND HAS ASSESSED THE INFORMATION IN A WAY THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH HOW THEY WOULD HANDLE CASES OF OTHER INDIVIDUALS WHO MISHANDLE CLASSIFIED INFORMATION OR ENGAGE IN CONDUCT THAT OBSTRUCTS JUSTICE, IF THEY HAVE CONDUCTED AN INVESTIGATION AND THEY CAN LAY OUT THE FACTS AND THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY COULD WIN THAT CASE AT TRIAL, IF THEY HAVE MET THOSE CRITERIA, THEN IT IS IN SUPPORT OF THE RULE OF LAW THAT THEY WOULD BRING THIS CASE EVEN THOUGH HE IS A FORMER PRESIDENT.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> POPULAR NEW HAMPSHIRE GOVERNOR CHRIS SUNUNU HAS DECIDED ON HIS STRATEGY TO MOVE HIS PARTY AWAY FROM TRUMP, AND IT IS BY NOT RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

SUNUNU'S ANNOUNCEMENT SURPRISED POLITICAL OBSERVERS.

HERE HE IS EXPLAINING HIS RATIONALE TO WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE AND GOVERNOR SUNUNU!

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON!

>> SO YOU WROTE AN OP-ED PIECE SAYING YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD A PATH TO VICTORY.

BUT THEN YOU SAID I AM NOT GOING TO RUN.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> THE PARTIES GOING THROUGH A TOUGH TIME RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF MESSAGING, IN TERMS OF MAKING SURE WE GET INDEPENDENCE AND YOUNG VOTERS BACK ON BOARD.

THAT ALL HAS TO HAPPEN TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN NOVEMBER.

I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT YEAH, THERE IS A PATH, NOT EASY OF COURSE, BUT IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THE CHRIS SUNUNU SHOW.

YOU WILL HAVE ANOTHER DOZEN CANDIDATES ON THE STAGE ANYWAYS.

I THINK THERE IS VALUE IN SHOWING THE NEW HAMPSHIRE MODEL OF HOW YOU GET STUFF DONE AND HOPEFULLY ENCOURAGING AND INSPIRING CANDIDATES ON A NATIONAL LEVEL AND MAKING SURE WE HAVE A STRONG TICKET.

OTHERWISE, THINGS WILL JUST REPEAT THEMSELVES.

THAT IS NOT GOOD FOR REPUBLICANS.

I DON'T THINK WE HAVE TO CHANGE WHO WE ARE BUT GET BACK TO THE BASICS OF WHAT WE ARE ABOUT, BECAUSE THAT COULD BE INSPIRATIONAL, FOLKS.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT LOW TAXES AND LIMITED GOVERNMENT CONTROL AND ALWAYS THINGS THAT REALLY MATTER.

FINALLY, YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THE CANDIDATES ARE TALKING ABOUT THINGS MOVING FORWARD AND NOT JUST RELITIGATING THE PAST, BECAUSE THAT IS A SURE FIRE WAY TO LOSE A RACE IN 2024.

SO MAKING SURE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INFLATION, BORDER SECURITY, ENERGY INDEPENDENCE, ALL THESE THINGS THAT REPUBLICANS ARE FRANKLY GOOD AT AND THAT CAN IMPACT PEOPLE'S LIVES AND NOT GET THE MESSAGE CONFUSED BY A LOT OF THE OTHER THINGS WE CONFUSE OURSELVES WITH.

WE DO IT TO OURSELVES.

THIS IS WHO REPUBLICANS ARE.

WE TEND TO DO IT TO OURSELVES.

WE ARE REALLY GOOD AT THE JOB BUT TERRIBLE AT MESSAGING.

I WANT TO BE PART OF SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT VIGOR AND MORE INSPIRATIONAL FOR THE BEST FOR THE PARTY AND THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

>> THAT SOUNDED LIKE A GOOD STUMP SPEECH, SO I AM STILL CONFUSED.

WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?

>> BECAUSE AGAIN, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ABOUT ME.

I AM MANAGING THE PRIMARY.

I WANT ALL THE CANDIDATES TO COME TO NEW HAMPSHIRE AND UNDERSTAND THE VALUE OF RETAIL POLITICS.

IF THERE WERE MAYBE FOUR OR FIVE OR SIX CANDIDATES ON THE STAGE MAYBE THE DECISION WOULD BE DIFFERENT, BUT THERE WILL BE LIKE A DOZEN CANDIDATES.

IF TRUMP WAS NOT 40 POINTS UP ON MOST OF THE OTHER CANDIDATES RIGHT NOW, MAYBE I WOULD MAKE A BIT OF A DIFFERENT DECISION, BUT A LOT OF REPUBLICANS ARE JUST THINKING IN THE PAST AS OPPOSED TO THINKING IN THE FUTURE, AND WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE DONALD TRUMP IS NOT THE NOMINEE.

HE SIMPLY CANNOT MATHEMATICALLY WIN IN NOVEMBER 2024.

SO I THINK I COULD BE MORE HELPFUL TO THE PARTY IN THOSE SUCCESSES.

IT IS A TEAM GAME.

IT CANNOT JUST BE ABOUT A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL.

WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT OURSELVES SOMETIMES.

>> YOU JUST SAID THAT IT CANNOT WIN IF TRUMP IS THE NOMINEE.

THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID IN YOUR WASHINGTON POST EDITORIAL.

IS THAT THE MAIN REASON WHY YOU ARE AGAINST NOMINATING TRUMP, OR DO YOU THINK THE TRUMP IS NOT FIT TO BE PRESIDENT?

>> FOR ME THE MAIN REASON IS HE CANNOT WIN AND HE DRAGS THE WHOLE TICKET DOWN.

HE COST US U.S. SENATE SEATS IN 2022.

HE HAS COST US HOUSE SEATS.

HE COST -- LOOK, HE COST US SCHOOL BOARD SEATS!

YOU HAVE REPUBLICANS THAT HAVE TO JUSTIFY WHY THEY ARE REPUBLICAN AND THEY MIGHT BE ON THE SAME TEAM AS DONALD TRUMP, AND EVEN A SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER GETS THEIR MESSAGING ALL TWISTED UP BECAUSE OF THIS GUY.

SO HE IS COSTING REPUBLICANS UP AND DOWN THE BALLOT ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IT IS REALLY THAT SIMPLE.

HE COULD NOT EVEN WIN GEORGIA.

THAT HAS BEEN PROVEN.

IF YOU CANNOT WIN GEORGIA AS A REPUBLICAN, CAME OVER AND LIGHTS OUT.

THERE IS NO PATH TO ELECTORAL VICTORY.

SO RIGHT THERE IT TELLS YOU IT CANNOT HAPPEN IF HE IS THE NOMINEE.

IT IS BEST FOR THE PARTY AND BEST FOR AMERICA.

THERE ARE LOTS OF CANDIDATES TO MAKE SURE THE PARTY IS MOVING FORWARD IN A POSITIVE WAY AND DRIVING FORWARD ON A POSITIVE REPUBLICAN TICKET TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN 24.

>> BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS ABOUT TRUMP INCLUDING THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION AND OTHER THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE HIM NOT PALATABLE.

>> I THINK IT MAKES A LOT OF PEOPLE NOT WANT TO VOTE FOR TRUMP.

AGAIN, IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT ME.

IT HAS PUSHED A LOT OF INDEPENDENT VOTERS OFF AND DISENFRANCHISED A LOT OF YOUNG VOTERS IN A NEGATIVE WAY AND IT COST US ALL THE TIME.

A LOT OF FOLKS, YOU KNOW, THE FORMER PRESIDENT, AFTER 2020, HAD A CHOICE OF WHAT ATTITUDE AND PATH TO TAKE.

THE PATH HE CHOSE REALLY PUT HIM IN A DIFFICULT POSITION AND IT PUT OUR PARTY IN A PRECARIOUS POSITION AND WE PAID FOR IT DAILY IN 2022.

WE SHOULD HAVE HAD 53 OR MAYBE 54 U.S. SENATE SEATS AND WE LOST THEM!

YOU HAD DEMOCRATS THAT WERE SO CONFIDENT THAT TRUMP AND HIS MESSAGE WERE BAD THAT THEY WERE FINDING REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES THAT CARRIED HIS MESSAGE, THAT WERE HIS CANDIDATES!

THEY WERE FINDING THEM TO MAKE SURE THEY WON THEIR PRIMARIES!

THAT IS HOW CONFIDENT DEMOCRATS ARE IN BEATING REPUBLICANS AND IT WORKED!

IT WORKED.

WHY WOULD WE DO THAT AGAIN?

>> I WANT TO PUSH BACK A BIT, THOUGH, WHICH IS, YOU ARE RIGHT.

ALL THE THINGS YOU HAVE SAID ABOUT THE LOSSES OR THE THINGS YOU DID NOT WIN.

BUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS ACTUALLY DONE PRETTY WELL.

BOTH HOUSES OF YOUR LEGISLATURE ARE NOW REPUBLICAN IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.

THAT HAS HAPPENED IN 22 STATES.

DeSANTIS WON WITH A TRUMP -LIKE MESSAGE WITH A VERY LARGE BOAT IN FLORIDA.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE MESSAGE IS NOT AS TOXIC AS YOU SAID.

>> NOT AT THE STATE LEVEL.

STATES ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE APPRECIATE, PARTIALLY THROUGH THE PANDEMIC PROCESS, THEY APPRECIATE THE VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LEGISLATURES.

FOLKS CAN HAVE A MUCH MORE IMPACTFUL SAY IN THE THING THAT HITS THEIR LIVES ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS WITH THEIR LEGISLATURE AND THEIR GOVERNORSHIPS.

VIRTUALLY EVERY STATE HAS A BALANCED BUDGET AMENDMENT.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES NOT PLAY BY THOSE RULES.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES NOT REALLY GET ANYTHING DONE.

SO THERE IS A LOT MORE OF THE CHECKS AND BALANCES BUILT INTO THE SYSTEM AT STATE LEVEL AND PEOPLE APPRECIATE IT, SO THEY CAN SEPARATE THEMSELVES ON STATE ISSUES THERE.

BUT IN THE U.S. SENATE, THE CONGRESSIONAL SEATS, WE SHOULD HAVE A LOT MORE SEATS, AND FRANKLY IT WOULD BE GREAT IF WE HAD A PERSON WHO COULD HAVE WON IN 2020.

IF YOU CANNOT WIN IN 2020, THINK OF IT THIS WAY.

ARE THERE ANY INDEPENDENTS WHO DID NOT VOTE FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT IN 2020 THAT ARE CHANGING THEIR MIND AND ARE NOW GOING TO VOTE FOR THE GUY?

NO.

ZERO.

HE IS ONE OF THE MOST KNOWN POLITICAL COMMODITIES OF THE 21st CENTURY.

YOU ARE EITHER WITH HIM OR YOU ARE NOT, AND THE MATH SAYS WAY MORE PEOPLE ARE NOT WILLING TO BUDGE AT ALL, SO WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MOVE ON.

AND WHY NOT?

WE ARE NOT A COUNTRY THAT MOVES BACKWARD!

WE ALWAYS WANT THE NEW, BIGGER, BETTER VERSION OF THINGS.

THE NEW IDEA, THE NEW INDIVIDUAL, THE NEW INNOVATION.

SO THAT IS WHY YOU GO THROUGH ELECTIONS!

YOU DON'T GO THROUGH ELECTIONS TO GO BACKWARDS.

YOU GO THROUGH THEM TO MOVE FORWARD.

>> BY MY GRAY HAIR, YOU CAN PROBABLY TELL THAT I AM OLD ENOUGH TO HAVE KNOWN YOUR FATHER QUITE WELL.

HE REPRESENTED A VERY CONSERVATIVE, VERY REPUBLICAN, VERY TRADITIONALIST PARTY WITH IDEALS THAT WERE VERY CLEAR AND HAD BEEN THAT WAY FOR 20, 30 YEARS.

SUDDENLY THE PARTY, I WON'T SAY SUDDENLY, BUT IN THE AGE OF TRUMP THE PARTY HAS BEEN PULLED AWAY FROM SO MANY OF THOSE IDEALS.

I COULD GO DOWN THE LITANY BUT YOU COULD PROBABLY DO IT BETTER THAN I CAN.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND WHY HAS IT CHANGED SO RADICALLY IN THE AGE OF TRUMP?

>> LET'S BE FAIR.

THE LITANY OF IDEAS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAVE DRASTICALLY CHANGED.

WE USED TO MAKE JOKES ABOUT THE GREEN NEW DEAL.

WE USED TO MAKE JOKES ABOUT SOCIALISM, AND NOW A HUGE PORTION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IDENTIFIES AS SOCIALISM ISN'T SO BAD, RIGHT?

>> I WILL HAVE A DEMOCRAT ON AND QUESTION HIM, BUT JUST RESPECT TO THE QUESTION -- HASN'T THE REPUBLICAN PARTY SHIFTED NOT JUST TO THE RIGHT, BUT TO A WHOLE NEW SET OF ATTITUDES AND RESENTMENTS?

>> I DON'T THINK THAT IS FAIR TO SAY.

I THINK THERE IS, THE MICROPHONES ARE GIVEN TO THE EXTREMES.

I THINK THAT MEDIA AND SOCIAL MEDIA PLAYS RIGHT INTO THAT.

THE MEDIA AND SOCIAL MEDIA LIKE TO PLAY RIGHT INTO THE TRUMP IDEAL OF RELITIGATING OLD STUFF AND TALKING ABOUT THE 2020 ELECTION IN JANUARY 6th AND ALL OF THIS SORT OF STUFF.

SO NO, WE ARE NOT MOVING, IT IS NOT THAT WE ARE MOVING, IT IS THE MESSAGING GETS CLOUDED AND CO-OPTED BY EXTREMES BUT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE VAST MAJORITY.

IF TRUMP WERE IN A RACE, ONE ON ONE WITH ANOTHER CANDIDATE, HE LOSES UNQUESTIONABLY.

SO IT IS NOT THAT THOSE IDEALS AND THAT EXTREMISM HAS CO-OPTED THE WHOLE PARTY.

RIGHT NOW IT HAS JUST CO-OPTED THE MICROPHONES.

WE HAVE TO APPRECIATE THAT AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT AND MOVE FORWARD.

>> ARE YOU GOING TO ENDORSE A PARTY BEFORE THE NEW HAMPSHIRE PRIMARY?

>> I PLAN ON IT.

I DEFINITELY PLAN ON IT.

WE WILL SEE WHO GOES WHERE OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, BUT I HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR THAT I THINK WE NEED TO BE STRONG AS A PARTY AND NOT MAKE THE MISTAKES OF 2016 AND HELP TO NARROW THIS FIELD DOWN EARLIER THAN LATER.

THAT MEANS BY THANKSGIVING OR CHRISTMAS OF THIS YEAR, IF YOU ARE NOT DOING WELL IN THE POLLS, THANKS FOR PLAYING, GOOD JOB, GOT TO GET OUT OF THE RACE.

WE GOT TO NARROW THIS THING DOWN.

I THINK THE CANDIDATES UNDERSTAND AND THEY KNOW THAT THERE IS A TIME LEASE FACTOR HERE.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO LET THIS GO TO SUPER TUESDAY WITHOUT NARROWING IT DOWN TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AND ONE OTHER CANDIDATE.

I THINK YOU WILL SEE A LOT OF OPPORTUNITY FOR THAT NEXT GENERATION, THE NEXT MOVEMENT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TO MOVE FORWARD WITH A CLEAR CONSCIENCE.

>> WHO DO YOU FEEL HAS THE MOST OPTIMISTIC TYPE OF MESSAGE?

>> OH BOY, THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

OF THE CURRENT CANDIDATES?

I CAN'T SAY OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD.

I THINK THEY ARE ALL OPTIMISTIC IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

I THINK GOVERNORS ARE OPTIMISTIC BECAUSE GOVERNORS ALWAYS FEEL LIKE THEY CAN GET STUFF DONE BECAUSE THEY ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE ALL THE TIME.

I THINK VICE PRESIDENT PENCE, HAVE TO SAY, I THINK HE IS A VERY OPTIMISTIC TONE.

HE IS A GREAT GUY.

HE HAS GONE UP AND DOWN IN TERMS OF THE PRESSURES HE HAS HAD TO WITHSTAND, AND HE BELIEVES IN THIS COUNTRY VERY STRONGLY.

NIKKI HALEY HAS A GREAT SENSE OF WHAT HAPPENS AT THE STATE AND NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL LEVEL.

SHE BRINGS A REALLY UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE IN THAT WAY AND HAS HAD A LOT OF PRESSURE ON HER BUT HAS OVERCOME A LOT.

THEY HAVE ALL COME FROM DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, BUT LET'S SEE WHAT THEY OFFER AND HOW THEY SELL IT AND THE EXPERIENCE AND EXAMPLES THEY CAN PUT FORTH TO BE THE INSPIRATION WE WANT TO SEE.

>> YOU HAD A LINE IN YOUR OP-ED THAT LEAPT OUT AT ME, WHICH IS THAT CANDIDATES SHOULD NOT GET INTO THIS RACE FOR A VANITY CAMPAIGN OR TO SELL BOOKS OR TO AUDITION TO BE VICE PRESIDENT.

WHO ARE YOU CALLING OUT?

>> I WILL NOT SAY ANY NAMES INDIVIDUALLY, BUT THERE ARE CLEARLY SOME CANDIDATES THAT EITHER CLEARLY DON'T HAVE A SHOT BUT WANT TO GET IN TO BE CONSIDERED AS VP.

YOU HAVE TO CALL THEM OUT FOR NOT DRAINING THE SWAMP AND NOT SECURING THE BORDER AND WRAPPING HIS ARMS AROUND ANDREW CUOMO AND SAYING HE DID A BETTER JOB THAN REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS, SPECIFICALLY RON DeSANTIS.

NOBODY THINKS ANDREW CUOMO DID A BETTER JOB MANAGING THE PANDEMIC THAN RON DeSANTIS DID.

DEMOCRATS DON'T THINK THAT.

SO THAT TYPE OF STUFF, LET'S CALL THAT OUT FOR WHAT IT IS.

LET'S NOT LET HIM CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT HE IS SOME TYPE OF CONSERVATIVE OF THE FUTURE.

HE IS A FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE PAST.

I SUPPORTED HIM IN 2016 AND 2020.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE, WE ARE MOVING ON.

BUT ALL THE RESIDENTS NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS WHERE THE PARTY IS.

DONALD TRUMP IS FOR DONALD TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS MOVING FORWARD AS A PARTY, AND ALL THE CANDIDATES NEED TO HAVE THAT MESSAGE THE RIGHT WAY.

>> YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOU HAVE GOT TO GET SUBURBAN MOMS.

YOU HAVE GOT TO GET INDEPENDENT VOTERS.

IT SEEMED IN SOME WAYS AS AN UNDERCURRENT, AND YOU CAN PUSH BACK ON ME, THAT YOU THOUGHT RON DeSANTIS AND PEOPLE LIKE THAT WERE GOING TOO FAR IN A CERTAIN SORT OF EDGY DIRECTION AND MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO GET THE INDEPENDENT VOTERS AS WELL.

DID I MISREAD THAT?

>> OH NO, GOVERNOR DeSANTIS JUST WON A STATE BY 20 POINTS OR WHATEVER IT WAS.

HE GOT A LOT OF SUBURBAN MOMS AND A LOT OF INDEPENDENT ON HIS SIDE.

HE DID VERY WELL IN HIS LAST ELECTION, SO THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH CURRENT GOVERNOR DeSANTIS.

>> THEN WHAT TYPE OF PERSON IS IT REFERRING TO?

I DON'T GET IT.

>> ANYONE WHO WAS LIVING IN THAT EXTREME WORLD AND TRYING TO LITIGATE YESTERDAY.

NOBODY WANTS TO SEE THAT IN AMERICA.

THOSE -- I MEAN THEY CARE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST BUT THEY CARE MORE ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITIES YOU ARE GOING TO CREATE FOR THEM, THEIR FAMILY AND THEIR BUSINESS IN THE FUTURE, SO THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.

THE SUBURBAN MOMS THAT I TALK ABOUT OUR BIG DECISION-MAKERS IN THEIR HOUSEHOLDS AND THEY SHOULD BE.

THEY CARE PASSIONATELY FOR THEIR KIDS.

THEY MANAGE A LOT OF THE FINANCES IN THEIR HOUSEHOLDS.

THESE ARE THE FOLKS YOU SHOULD BE TALKING TO DIRECTLY AND NOT TALKING TO BUT LISTENING FROM.

THAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE.

MAKE THEM PART OF THE SOLUTION.

DOESN'T MEAN I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU ON EVERY POLICY, BUT INDEPENDENCE AND YOUNG VOTERS, THE SUBURBAN MOMS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, THE NEED TO KNOW THAT THEY HAVE A VOICE AND A SAY AND THAT YOU WILL AT LEAST CONSIDER THEIR POSITIONS, WHERE THEY ARE, AND TRY TO CREATE OPPORTUNITIES AROUND THAT.

IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE PAST, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OPPORTUNITY OF TOMORROW, SO THOSE FOLKS END UP GOING TO THE OTHER TEAM.

>> I WANT TO REVIEW A SENTENCE FROM VICE PRESIDENT PENCE, A FRIEND OF YOURS, SOMEBODY YOU SAID YOU WOULD MEYER.

HE IS TALKING TO JANUARY 6th.

HE SAID ON THAT FATEFUL DAY, PRESIDENT TRUMP DEMANDED THAT I CHOOSE BETWEEN HIM AND THE CONSTITUTION.

NOW VOTERS WILL BE FACED WITH THE SAME CHOICE.

YOU AGREE WITH HIM?

>> YES.

YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

AGAIN, EITHER WE MOVE ON OR WE DON'T.

WE RELITIGATE THE PAST AND WE TRY TO WHITEWASH WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th OR KEEP TRYING TO CONVINCE OURSELVES THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN, WHICH IT WASN'T, OBVIOUSLY, OR WE MOVE FORWARD.

SO NO, I TAKE IT VERY MUCH TO HEART.

I CAN'T IMAGINE THE PRESSURES THAT THE FORMER VICE PRESIDENT WAS UNDER.

>> TRUMP WAS IMPEACHED TWICE IN THE SENATE REFUSED TO CONVICT AFTER THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT.

IN RETROSPECT, DO YOU HOPE THEY HAD CONVICTED HIM?

>> I DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT THAT.

AGAIN, YOU ARE ASKING ME TO RELITIGATE THE PAST.

THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM ABOUT, MAN.

YOU HAVE ALL THESE INDICTMENTS THAT ARE COMING DOWN AND THEY ARE CONTINUING TO HAPPEN WITH THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

I KNOW THE MEDIA LOVES TO TALK ABOUT IT COMING BUT WE HAVE GOT TO BE, AS A PARTY, THAT IS WHY I AM NOT RUNNING, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO AS A PARTY AND CREATE OPPORTUNITY FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS AND FAMILIES.

SO I AM NOT TAKING A SIDE ON THAT.

I DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT, TO BE HONEST.

>> SO WILL YOU ENDORSE TRUMP IF HE IS THE NOMINEE?

>> HE IS NOT GOING TO BE THE NOMINEE.

WE ARE GOING TO GET THIS DOWN TO ANOTHER CANDIDATE VERSUS HIM AND HE WILL NOT BE THE NOMINEE.

MY GOAL IS TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE A STRONG TICKET AND THAT OTHER CANDIDATES CANNOT HAVE THE RESOURCES TO STAND ON THEIR OWN.

>> EVEN WITH ALL THE POLLS SHOWING HIM DOMINATING THE PARTY?

>> LOOK, IT IS STILL EARLY!

WE HAVEN'T HAD A DEBATE YET!

>> ARE WE GOING TO HAVE DEBATES, DO YOU THINK, WITH DONALD TRUMP?

>> THE DEBATES WILL HAPPEN.

TRUMP WILL HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER HE WANTS TO PARTICIPATE.

HOW CAN YOU SAY YOU ARE REPRESENTING YOUR PARTY WHEN YOU'RE NOT GOING TO PARTICIPATE?

THAT WOULD BE NUTS.

MY GUESS IS HE WON'T BE ABLE TO KEEP HIMSELF OUT OF IT, BUT HE HAS A LOT TO ANSWER FOR.

BUT WE WILL NARROW THIS FIELD DOWN AND GET DOWN TO A ONE-ON- ONE RACE VERY QUICKLY AND HE WILL NOT BE THE NOMINEE.

>> GOVERNOR CHRIS SUNUNU, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THE GOVERNOR REACTED TO TRUMP'S INDICTMENT IN A RADIO INTERVIEW SAYING THAT MOST REPUBLICAN VOTERS HAVE ALREADY HEARD THIS STORY BEFORE, ADDING THAT IT WAS NOT A HUGE IMPACT ON THE PRIMARY, BUT VERY, VERY IMPACTFUL FOR THE GENERAL ELECTION IF HE WERE TO BE NOMINEE.

NOW PAYING TO PLAY ON THE GLOBAL STAGE.

>>> SAUDI ARABIA IS ON A MAJOR PR OFFENSIVE, LEVERAGING VAST OIL RICHES AND THE POWER OF SPORT TO REHABILITATE ITS INTERNATIONAL IMAGE.

WHEN PEOPLE SAY SAUDI ARABIA, THE CROWN PRINCE NOW WANTS THEM TO THINK ABOUT GREAT SPECTACLES, NOT MURDER JOURNALISTS, 9/11 HIJACKERS OR HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES.

THIS WEEK WE SAW A MAJOR SAUDI WHEN WITH THE MERGER OF THE PGA TOUR WITH LIV GOLF AND ANOTHER COUP FOR THE SAUDI SOCCER LEAGUE, BY ACQUIRING KAREN PENCE HIM UP.

BUT DESPITE DANGLING A CARROT, THEY COULD NOT ENTICE LIONEL MESSI.

SPORTS SENIOR WRITER JOHN WERTHEIM JOINED ME FROM THE FRENCH OPEN.

SO I KNOW YOU ARE COVERING TENNIS, BUT IN THE MIDST OF ALL OF THAT THERE WAS A BIG ANNOUNCEMENT THAT SHOCKED EVERYONE, I THINK.

HOW BIG OF A DEAL IS THIS LIV GOLF-PGA TOUR MERGER?

>> I THINK IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY ISSUE.

IT IS POTENTIALLY A TRANSFORMATIONAL MOMENT IN SPORTS.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN WE DIG DOWN, IT WILL BE A FASCINATING STORY.

>> SO YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS FOR A WHILE.

YOU WENT TO SAUDI ARABIA AND TALKED TO THE SPORTS MINISTER.

THERE ARE THESE HUMAN RIGHTS CRISES AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAID TO YOU.

>> EVERYBODY SHOULD COME AND SEE SAUDI ARABIA FOR YOURSELF AND MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, FINE.

>> HOW DO YOU REACT TO THAT, JOHN?

>> HE DID NOT SEEM TO AGREE WITH THE PREMISE THAT A COUNTRY COULD CLEANSE ITS IMAGE THROUGH SPORTS.

YEAH, THAT IS THE SORT OF TYPICAL MORAL RELATIVISM, WHAT ABOUT IS THEM, WE ARE NOT PERFECT BUT NOBODY ELSE IS EITHER.

THIS MIGHT BE MY RESPONSE IF I WERE BEING ASKED TO DEFEND WHAT HE IS BEING ASKED TO DEFEND, BUT I DON'T THINK IT GETS IS PARTICULARLY FAR.

>> SO LET'S DRILL DOWN NOW ON THE PGA TOUR.

THE COMMISSIONER BASICALLY SAID ALMOST AS A CHALLENGE OR RATIONALE, HE BASICALLY SAID I WOULD ASK ANY PLAYER THAT WOULD CONSIDER LEAVING, HAVE YOU EVER HAD TO APOLOGIZE FOR BEING A MEMBER OF THE PGA TOUR?

IN OTHER WORDS, SAYING THAT THERE IS NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF PLAYING FOR THIS TOUR.

MAYBE THERE WOULD BE FOR LIV GOLF.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID THIS WEEK.

>> I RECOGNIZE THE PEOPLE WILL CALL ME A HYPOCRITE.

ANYTIME I HAVE SAID ANYTHING, I HAVE SET IT WITH THE INFORMATION I HAD AT THAT MOMENT AND I HAVE SAID IT AS SOMEONE TRYING TO SPEAK FOR OUR PLAYERS.

I ACCEPT THESE CRITICISMS.

>> SO WHAT KIND OF CHANGE IS THIS, JOHN?

>> IT WOULD BE A GREAT QUESTION TO PROPOSE TO JAY MONAHAN.

WE ARE USED TO SPENDING FROM BUSINESS AND WORLD LEADERS, BUT I AM NOT SURE ABOUT THIS HYPOCRISY.

NOT ONLY DID THE PGA TRY TO THWART THIS, BUT THEY REALLY LEANED INTO MORALITY AND GEOPOLITICS AND THE SPORTSWASHING ANGLE AND THE 9/11 FAMILIES.

FOR THEM TO SAY A YEAR LATER WE CHANGED OUR MIND, I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW THE SPECIFICS OF WHAT CHANGED THEIR MIND.

I THINK WHAT CHANGED THEIR MIND WERE MOUNTING LEGAL BILLS AND MAYBE SOME ADVICE ABOUT HOW THIS CASE IS GOING.

I AM NOT SURE THAT HE IS REFERRING TO A HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD.

WE TALK ABOUT JUJITSU AND OTHER THINGS BUT I'M NOT SURE WE HAVE SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

>> NOW THE PLAYERS ARE SPEAKING OUT.

WE KNOW THAT SOME MAJOR PLAYERS LIKE PHIL MICKELSON AND DUSTIN JOHNSON HAD ALREADY DECAMPED, BUT OTHERS REMAINED LOYAL, PEOPLE LIKE RORY McILROY, TIGER WOODS, ET CETERA.

McELROY IS STILL VERY OUTSPOKEN AGAINST LIV GOLF, SAYING HE HATES IT, BUT HE IS NOW MORE NUANCED.

THIS IS HIM AFTER THE NEWS.

>> IT IS HARD FOR ME TO NOT FEEL LIKE I HAVE PUT MYSELF OUT THERE AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS.

AGAIN, REMOVING MYSELF FROM THE SITUATION, I SEE HOW THIS IS BETTER FOR THE GAME OF GOLF.

THERE IS NO DENYING THAT.

BUT AS AN INDIVIDUAL THERE WILL HAVE TO BE CONVERSATIONS THAT I HAD.

>> WE KNOW THAT OTHER PLAYERS, LIV GOLF PLAYERS ARE CELEBRATING THIS.

HE IS OBVIOUSLY STILL RELUCTANT.

BUT IS THERE A CASE, AS HE SAID, THAT THIS IS BETTER FOR THE GAME OF GOLF?

>> IN THE SENSE THAT GOLF IS GETTING A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR INFUSION OF CAPITAL?

SURE.

I AM NOT SURE THAT IS ANYBODY'S AIM HERE.

WE NEED TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN LIV GOLF, WHICH WAS THE SORT OF ROGUE TOUR, THAT WILL PROBABLY CEASE TO EXIST.

I THINK WE NEED TO DIFFERENTIATE THAT FROM THE SAUDI CAPITAL THAT IS UNDERGIRDING ALL OF THIS.

SO IN THE SENSE THAT MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WITHOUT RUSHING TO THE GAME OF GOLF, THAT IS GOOD BUT I CAN ONLY IMAGINE HOW RORY McILROY FEELS, HAVING TAKEN HIS PRINCIPLED STAND AND HAVING TO CLIMB THIS NINE FIGURE OFFER FROM LIV GOLF, BUT THEN FINDING OUT THAT THE TOUR HAS TAKEN HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ITSELF.

THE WHOLE SITUATION IS EXCESSIVE.

>> ABSOLUTELY AND IT IS NOT JUST GOLF.

ALREADY THE SAUDI'S HAVE GOT FORMULA ONE AND ALWAYS OTHER THINGS.

NOW THEY ARE LOOKING TOWARDS FOOTBALL.

PEOPLE SAY IT COULD BE THE TAKEOVER OF FOOT TALL.

WE KNOW THE BIG NAMES, FOR INSTANCE, RINALDO.

HE SIGNED.

KARIM BENZEMA SIGNED.

MESSI HAS GONE TO MIAMI BUT HE HAS ALSO BEEN A TOURISM AMBASSADOR FOR THE KINGDOM.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO LEAD IN SOCCER, FOOTBALL?

>> YEAH, IT IS A GREAT POINT.

I THINK THAT, CALL IT WHAT YOU WANT, BUT I THINK THAT IT NOW LEGITIMIZES THE IDEA OF TAKING THIS SAUDI MONEY.

THE NEXT TIME AN AMERICAN FOOTBALL TEAM IS FOR SALE, I WOULD HAZARD A GUESS THAT THERE WILL BE A SAUDI-BACKED BID.

NEWCASTLE UNITED, IN GLOBAL SOCCER, AND FOOTBALL THERE IS ALREADY A SAUDI INFLUENCE.

I THINK SOME OF THIS IS ABOUT USING SPORTS.

WITH GOLF SO MUCH BUSINESS GETS DONE AT THESE PGA EVENTS.

I THINK AT SOME LEVEL YOU ARE BUYING ENTRY INTO THAT.

BUT THIS COMPLETELY CHANGES THE ECONOMICS OF SPORTS.

MOST OF THE TIME IN SPORTS IT IS ABOUT SELLING TICKETS AND MERCHANDISING.

THIS IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT SET OF ECONOMICS.

THIS IS ABOUT CLEANSING A REPUTATION AND ABOUT DIVERSIFYING AN ECONOMY THAT IS COMING OFF OF OIL AND REBRANDING A REPUTATION.

SO THE USUAL METRICS THAT WE WOULD USE IN SPORTS DO NOT APPLY TO THE SAUDI'S.

THEY ARE NOT IN THIS TO SELL TICKETS AND JERSEYS.

THEY ARE IN THIS FOR SOMETHING MUCH MORE MACRO.

>> IT COULD COME TO TENNIS AS WELL.

ANDY MURRAY HAS SAID THAT HE WOULD NEVER GO THERE, BUT NICK KYRGIOS HAS SAID HE WOULD JUMP AT THE CHANCE.

WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, AT THE FRENCH OPEN, ABOUT POLITICS IN TENNIS.

WE KNOW, AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT RIGHT NOW SOME OF THE PLAYERS LIKE THE RUSSIANS AND THE BELARUSIANS ARE NOT SHAKING HANDS WITH UKRAINIANS, UKRAINIANS WON'T, BUT THERE ARE SOME THUMBS UP.

TALK TO ME ABOUT THE POLITICS OF WHAT IS HAPPENING ON COURTS RIGHT NOW.

>> THIS IS A RELENTLESSLY GLOBAL SPORT.

IT WAS PROBABLY INEVITABLE THAT SOME OF THESE CONFLICTS ON THE GLOBAL STAGE WOULD PLAY OUT HERE.

TENNIS IS INTERESTING TO ME IN A COUPLE WAYS.

ONE OF THEM IS THAT IT IS AN INDIVIDUAL SPORT, SO IT IS NOT JUST A TEAM OR SOVIET DELEGATION OR THE OLYMPICS -- IT IS INDIVIDUAL ATHLETES.

ALEXANDER LUKASHENKO IN BELARUS HAS ACTUALLY MADE HIS ASSOCIATION WITH TENNIS PLAYERS PART OF HIS APPEAL.

WHAT YOU HAVE ARE UKRAINIAN PLAYERS WHO ARE VERY UPSET.

THEY DON'T EVEN WANT RUSSIAN COUNTERPARTS AND BELARUS IN COUNTERPARTS PLAYING.

>> I WANT TO ASK ABOUT AN ONGOING COMPLEX POLITICAL SITUATION SURROUNDING NOVAK DJOKOVIC.

MANY CALL HIM A VERY, YOU KNOW, INAPPROPRIATE AND SOME WOULD SAY DANGEROUS SERBIAN NATIONALIST WHO IS USING HIS PLATFORM TO BACK VERY CONTROVERSIAL POLICIES, WHETHER IT IS AGAINST THE COVID VACCINE, WHETHER IT IS HIS FATHER WITH THE RUSSIAN SYMBOL Z EMBLAZONED, WHETHER IT IS HE HIMSELF, TOOK A PITCH, USING THE HEART SYMBOL AND TALKING ABOUT HOW KOS OF, AN INDEPENDENT STATE NOW, IS AND FOREVER WILL BE THE BEATING HEART OF SERBIA, DESPITE ALL THE INTERNATIONAL PEACE AGREEMENTS AND THE U.N. WHAT IS GOING ON WITH JOE?

WHAT IMPELS HIM TO INSERT HIMSELF INTO POLITICS?

>> IT IS A FASCINATING TOPIC.

IN SOME CASES PLAYERS AND ATHLETES ARE DRAWN INTO THIS.

THEY GET ASKED QUESTIONS AT PRESS CONFERENCES.

HE TOOK A CAMERA QUESTION ABOUT KOSOVO BEING DRAWN IN WITH SERBIA.

AS HE DID WITH HIS STANCE ON VACCINATIONS, HE HAS REALLY GONE INTO THIS HEADLONG.

THIS IS PART OF THE COMPLEXITY.

A LOT OF ATHLETES RUN SCREAMING FROM ANYTHING CONTROVERSIAL.

THEY DON'T WANT THE DISTRACTION.

HE TAKES THE OPPOSITE TACK.

SOME OF THIS I THINK IS ABOUT THE RECEPTION THAT HE GETS WHEN HE IS IN SERBIA AND HIS POPULARITY THERE AND THE FACT THAT HIS PARENTS ARE VERY ACTIVE IN PROPPING UP HIS MESSIANIC FIGURE.

I THINK SOME OF THIS IS ABOUT PERFORMANCE.

I THINK HE THINKS HE PLAYS BETTER WHEN THERE IS FRICTION.

HE DID NOT HAVE TO SIGN THAT CAMERA AND BRING UP KOSOVO AFTER A FIRST ROUND MATCH IN PARIS.

HE CHOSE TO DO THAT.

THERE IS A LOT OF COMPLEXITY HERE.

>> JOHN WERTHEIM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/ AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, AND WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK.